#63 Richard Farleigh (Dragon’s Den) - Succeeding Against All the Odds

You may be familiar with today’s guest, Richard Farleigh, a high-profile entrepreneur, former Dragon on the TV show Dragon’s Den, and member of the Sunday Times Rich List.

The successes are well documented - but Richard’s start in life couldn't have been much worse.

Born into a family of 11 children with an alcoholic father, they travelled around the Australian outback, living in poverty in 2 tents.

Eventually, Richard was taken into the care system at 2 years old, and his early years were quite brutal.

Separated from his siblings, treated poorly by foster parents, and placed in the remedial class at school, Richard eventually found salvation through his love of chess.

This led to him developing a skill for strategy and numbers, which allowed him to secure a place at university and then on to a job at the Central Bank.

He later moved into investment banking, where he excelled, and was headhunted to run a secretive hedge fund in Bermuda  -  before retiring at 34 and moving to Monaco.

What a journey!

But inevitably, retirement wasn't for him, and Richard found a new passion for business. He’s since invested in over 100 companies across a wide range of sectors and industries and remains very active in the entrepreneurial world.

• He shared his experiences on Dragon’s Den and what he thinks of one Dragon in particular - and it’s not flattering! 
• He talks about what it takes to succeed in business and, as an investor, the secret sauce  ingredient that he looks for in every company he invests in.
• He also discussed his two new books, which he just published, and why he thinks they could help business owners and aspiring entrepreneurs. I’ve included a link below to access them pre-launch.

This is an incredible story of resilience and personal growth that offers so many lessons for anyone facing challenges in their life.

Richard's story proves that success is always possible, even when the odds are stacked against you.

If you enjoy the conversation, please hit the subscribe button, give the show a 5-star review, and share it with anyone you think it can help.

Links:

https://www.farleigh.com/index.html

https://www.farleigh.com/books.html

This podcast is produced by GR Media
Sponsored by Capital Asset Management

Transcript

Alan Smith (00:01.698)
Richard Farleigh, welcome to the podcast. Good to see you.

Rich (00:05.107)
Bye Alan, thank you for having me.

Alan Smith (00:08.526)
is great. Now, Richard, are, it's fair to say, you're something of a media personality, a pretty high profile entrepreneur, but believe it or not, there are some people that may not know all about you and your backstory. And I think it's just a great place to start, is if we can go back to those, you know, the very early days, obviously born in Australia.

And you had a, how can I put it, you had an interesting childhood. Take me back to those very, very early days and what was your upbringing like?

Rich (00:40.765)
Well, I had a very unusual upbringing. You know, it's funny when you talk about your own upbringing, it's not unusual to oneself, but I've learned that it's unusual to other people. I grew up in the care system. I come from a very poor, you know, you may not know if you're watching Dragon's Den, I had a lot of people thinking I was, you know, born with a silver spoon in my mouth and had it easy, no quite. To the contrary, I was one of 11 children born to a family who lived in the outback.

My father was a sheep shearer, so we traveled around the countryside and lived in two tents and traveled around the truck and had a lot of big family. And my father was a great worker, but also an alcoholic and unreliable. So we would often skip town in the middle of the night after owing a lot of money to the local store or to the other workers, whatever, and just flee. And because I was a baby, I was allowed inside the truck, but all the others had to be.

outside the truck. I mean, I'm not trying to start a sob story. It's a long time ago, I just turned 64. So this is, you know, it's like talking about a different person sometimes. But you know, I was sleeping in a cardboard box. And my sister who's just a bit older than me, we were sleeping in sort of some blankets on the on the ground and we were undernourished. The family had been warned a few times by the authorities that they were going to lose their children. And then one day, which must have been traumatic for me, you know, traumatic for everyone, but I

remember it vaguely, which is, you know, it only just turning towards three years old. But they came and took us away and my mother was very upset and my father was sort of, well, I don't remember how he was, but having since heard about it from my siblings, he was nonchalant and we were shipped off to Sydney and we spent five hours on the train. We stayed overnight. It was quite cruel. In those days, they shipped my brothers and sisters into a prison to keep them overnight and I was kept in the hospital because I was a baby.

Alan Smith (02:21.454)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (02:35.406)
Hmm.

Rich (02:37.485)
and we were shipped off to Sydney and then appeared in court charged with being neglected children and then put in the care of the state. And then we were sent to children's homes while waiting to see what would happen with our parents if they would get their act together and we would be returned to them on the condition that they got a house or something, you know, and then the older ones went to school. And that didn't really happen. So I ended up spending three months in the orphanage or kids' home.

I was in a girls one because I was, you know, if I'm giving you too much I can stop anytime. I was up. Yeah, it's a 1960s, so you know, it's hopefully handled a lot better now. I do some charity work, you know, talk to people who've gone through this sort of thing. But, you know, so was put in a girls orphanage or home because I was a little boy. And, you know, I've got, I've since been given books about...

Alan Smith (03:11.624)
No, no, no, it's fine. This is fascinating. mean, wow. Yeah, go on, please.

Rich (03:31.871)
I mean, it's outrageous. there's books been written about this system and about some of these homes and mentions, the one that I was in by name. They were just cruel. I mean, it's just unfathomably cruel. So I was put in, you know, I was separated from my sisters and they could hear me crying, but they weren't allowed to see me. I was there for three months. So you can imagine, you know, I mean, I feel sorry for that middle boy, you know, because, you know, being taken away and, know, I was very close to my sisters.

Alan Smith (03:56.354)
Yeah.

Rich (04:00.051)
and being taken away. And you can imagine how distraught any child would be being away from its mother for an hour, but put into a strange place with people who are obviously indifferent. And when you read the stories about what happened there. So they were in room next to me and I never saw them again. They weren't allowed to see me for absolutely no reason. know, there was a chance we were going to return to our parents. know, so why separate a two year old from his sisters? So it was unfathomably cruel. You know, I still have some sort of nightmare. I still have some issues from those days.

Alan Smith (04:03.598)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (04:21.036)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (04:28.227)
Hmm.

Rich (04:29.619)
Anyway, so then we were all sent off to foster homes and I never saw them again until reestablishing contact when I was in my early 20s. And I kind of lived in...

Alan Smith (04:38.638)
So were your siblings all split up? Because you had, you're one of eleven?

Rich (04:42.355)
yeah.

Yeah, well, you know, it's one of 11. We divide ourselves into the, so we weren't all put into care. We divide ourselves into, so there's 11 children. One unfortunately had died, which sort of shows how bad things were from drinking bad water in the outback somehow before I was born. So there's down to 10. And then my mother gave one away, you know, because she just couldn't, she was just struggling with all the kids. She gave my sister away to another family to look after.

And then after we were taken away, my parents had three more kids. actually taken away was six. So was one of six taken away. I had one who died, one had been given away, and then three came later. And one who came later, they gave away. So we divide ourselves into the keepers, because they ended up bringing up two kids to my siblings, and the takeaways, which I'm a takeaway, and the giveaways, where they gave two kids away. And unfortunately, they died. know she died as a baby.

Alan Smith (05:35.694)
Yeah, okay.

Rich (05:44.605)
So there were six by then. And then when I had no idea, like I used to get letters from my sisters in the foster home, but my foster mother was not very keen on passing them on and used to tell me bad things about my family, you know, for what reason? She wasn't a bad woman, but you know, I don't know why she wanted to do that. So I was just completely confused and missed my family terribly. And I didn't speak. Now I never show up.

Alan Smith (06:12.408)
haha

Rich (06:13.779)
You know, didn't speak until, really, until I was about, you know, like I could talk, but I was just very intimidated by adults. You know, like, I'll tell you this, you know, like, for example, I had to have eye operations when I was five. My confidence was so low in adults, you know, I had, because I had the measles and I had my left eye was, this eye was damaged by having the measles and...

Alan Smith (06:36.366)
Hmm.

Rich (06:38.739)
So I had to have two eye operations. And the first one, you know, like they put a bandage over your eye. And I remember, I still remember the smell of the hospital, the children's hospital, but you wake up, you know, with a bandage over your eyes. And this was when I was five. And my belief in adults or the trust in the world by that stage was so low, because my foster father wasn't very nice to me either. I was just, but my belief in the world was so low that I actually thought that they'd...

Alan Smith (06:50.574)
Hmm.

Rich (07:06.731)
And so I woke up from this operation I couldn't see, you know, I this bandage. And at five years old, thought that they deliberately blinded me. That's how sort of traumatized and lonely I was. I just thought, know, I had no faith in any adult. thought that just, just, that's how bad it was. And so I was put in special learning classes. I was assessed as backward and I didn't really talk. I could talk, but I didn't want to talk. You know, I talked to kids, to my friends.

Alan Smith (07:15.118)
Wow.

Alan Smith (07:33.422)
Hmm.

Rich (07:35.571)
But I wouldn't talk to adults. I was terrified. was terribly shy. you know, I've got a lot of sympathy now when I meet shy people, I, you know, I really liked them. It's a lot of empathy. I don't know if I'm sort of feeling sorry for little me, but I really feel a lot of empathy and you know, shyness. It's a horrible, you know, I wanted to, you know, as I got older, I wanted to talk to people and I hated being shy, but I just, I'd literally shake or I couldn't look people in the eye, you know, even when I was finishing university, you know, went for

Alan Smith (07:45.26)
Yeah.

Rich (08:04.957)
job interview or whatever, I couldn't look people in the eye. just was too, you know, still traumatized. anyway, that's, that's the sad, you know, it gets happier from there. Yeah.

Alan Smith (08:14.286)
Well, yeah, I would hope so. mean, what a, for people who haven't heard that story, I man, I'm just listening to you saying it. It's just, it's impactful. And anyone now who's like I have, you've got children yourself, you think just what an awful experience. And as you say, Richard, I don't know too much about it, but I really hope that, you know, the situation in care homes and foster homes is far better now than it was back then. I mean, you kind of alluded to it a second ago, but it's got to have an impact on you even to this day.

You still kind of somehow reflect on those as a grown man, a successful business person and a father of children. Do you still feel somewhat impacted or reflect on that on a regular basis?

Rich (08:57.043)
Yeah, have some unfortunate, you know, it's funny, I kind of talk about them now, but I have some unfortunate side effects from that, you know, just, you know, where, you know, it's a bit embarrassing, but, you know, I can get very, like panic attacks where I think I'm going to be violently attacked. you know, and even from friends or family, you know, if someone's behind me, you know, I'm, you know, because my father, he was violent towards us as kids.

Alan Smith (09:17.784)
Right.

Rich (09:26.763)
And so if someone's behind me or they're holding something which they might be able to hit me with, I have to sometimes, I never say anything to people, but sometimes it's freaking me out a little bit. Or if I'm in a bath and my girlfriend comes in or something and I immediately start thinking about her pushing my head under. And then when I'm alone, sometimes I get, because I used to hide when I was a kid.

Alan Smith (09:35.822)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (09:46.446)
Wow.

Rich (09:53.489)
because of those reasons. And I sometimes get very, very strong desires, desire at different times to hide, which is a bit inconvenient when you're a So I can't just go and hide. you know, so anyway, and then maybe making relationships, you know, I have, you know, I'm very close to, you know, I've got three children, I'm very close to my two exes, but my ability to keep a long term relationship, apparently is always going to be

Alan Smith (10:04.224)
imagine hmm hmm

Rich (10:23.549)
very messed up because I have, and I've kind of learned all this, apparently I have severe attachment disorder where you don't, when you don't make a connection with your, you learn how to make a connection with an adult, particularly your mother or your father, when you're between two and three. And if you're taken away, if that's broken, then you never believe in that. And so deep down, I probably don't really believe in that as strongly as I should. you know, so that's, I'm 64.

Alan Smith (10:23.822)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (10:49.87)
Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean, thank you. Yeah. I mean, Richard, I mean, thank you for just being so candid and open about that. You know, what a, you know, what an impact. And as you say, even to this day, what happened next, I understand as you sort of progress through school, you picked up a passion for chess and playing chess. Talk me through that stage of your life.

Rich (10:53.139)
Anyway.

Rich (11:11.187)
Yeah, well chess was kind of a salvation for me. So I was sort of in this slow learning class. then maybe because I was very into puzzles and I became good at maths, like well arithmetic. So I was in this backward class, I couldn't do anything. But then I started doing all the maths stuff and they noticed that.

So they sort of treated me a bit differently because then I became like, then I was top of the school, but I was still sort of backward or something. But I used to do, so I think I have that, that's my skill set. And I used to love doing puzzles. And now whether that's because I was so introverted, I just would get in my own little mind and I'd get a puzzle book and I loved puzzles. So chess became like the ultimate puzzle, but maths was a bit of a puzzle. But chess was the ultimate puzzle, which I still haven't figured out.

Alan Smith (12:02.616)
Hmm.

Rich (12:07.059)
So I got into chess just by chance, you know, just by chance, you know, started playing competitively when I was 11 or 12, which is a bit late if you want to be a really, really good chess player. It's probably like being a violinist or whatever, you know, you need to learn when you're when you're three or four and most of the really outstanding players. I'm not saying I would be, I could have learned when I was one and still be what I am. know, but I went into that and then just but then there's a community of chess players and

Alan Smith (12:07.18)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (12:19.0)
Right.

Alan Smith (12:29.016)
Hmm.

Rich (12:36.797)
You know, it could have been anything. You maybe it could have been dominoes or could have been tennis or it could have been, you know, but you get in this community and it doesn't really matter. You know, then I'm mixed with adults, you know, I got more used to adults and I'm mixed with different wealthy people. I was in a working class foster family, but you you meet different people and it doesn't really matter about, so it's like the benefits of sport for a young person. So I got all those benefits and I got confidence. So I used to think I was stupid, you know, because I've been told I was stupid since I was.

Alan Smith (12:54.222)
Hmm.

Rich (13:05.895)
three or something. And then I was beating adults, you know, became quite a good chess player and playing competitively. And I beat like the state champion when I always remember that as a big thing, because it was so I was so excited. I beat the state champion, adults, a champion when I was 52 years, and it got in the papers and I felt, you know, and I started to think adults, I wasn't so stupid. So it gave me the confidence. Yeah, and then my schoolwork concurrently got better.

Alan Smith (13:07.128)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (13:27.382)
Right, yeah, you got confidence. Yeah, exactly.

Rich (13:35.487)
and you know and also because I was doing well at maths you know so I got better and then I started to have more confidence so it had a big you know but I you know I always think back to this just to just to people listening you know I was at this church group you know because my was religious I was at this church group for kids and the church leader or you know whatever it was Sunday school it was a sort of evening thing he's put me in there he's got we've got us wearing boxing gloves

And I'm not a big guy. I'm like five, seven and a half. And I really want to own that half. know, I'm always trying to be bigger than I am. But I've got, you know, I'm not a big boy. you know, and he put, so, at 15 or whatever, you know, I'm like 11 year old. was underdeveloped anyway, you know? Anyway, so we've got boxing gloves and this kid, you he's a friend of mine, but he's just beating the crap out of me, know, like hitting me in the face. And I'm like, I'd never even hit anyone. I had no, absolutely no idea. I hate violence, you know, because

Alan Smith (14:06.675)
Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah.

Rich (14:32.135)
As I said, because my history, that's the last thing I want to do is hit someone. but, it's really, and just to show, you know, not to listen to people sometimes, because I was crying and the church guys stopped it. And I was just, even that point, I'm thinking, what's a church got to do with beating the crap out of each other? Like, what are these idiots? But anyway, I said to him, I said, I said, I just want to play chess. I was crying. I just said, I just want to play chess. And he said, chess will never get you anywhere. Chess will never get you anywhere.

And later on, I ran a fund, one of the things I wanted to talk about most was the fact that I was a chess master. And I felt like that guy at church, I wouldn't have got that far as a boxer, but it just shows, chess did a lot for me and the guy told me not to do it. Anyway, so chess, if come back to that. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (15:12.803)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (15:17.75)
Yeah, just shows you, don't necessarily believe all that people tell you as you're growing up. You obviously understood your own natural talent for chess. You enjoyed playing chess, built a community, were able to speak with adults. And I guess it really helped you to develop and ultimately the beginnings of your career. Just that analytical mindset that helped you. So you went through school and did you go to university?

Rich (15:43.731)
Yeah, so I went through school and I did well at school. Gradually, by the time I got to high school, I was doing well. was in the top of most subjects. Like as one of the cats, we used to call them at school the cats. I was one of the cats. And particularly in maths, I suppose. And economics. And maybe it's just because I like school because I was introverted and I was a nerd. And nerds, you can be

you it doesn't mean you're naturally smart, you'll get it, you'll get it, you'll get the idea. But anyway, so I did well at school at the end of it, but because I was in the care system, you know, when you turn 18, you know, like all my friends were, you know, they would go to, they were going to university. But I had no, I had to get a job because I had, when you're in the care system falls off a cliff at 18, you know, you get no support, no support. know, I've done, it's much better now, but in those days,

Alan Smith (16:18.168)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich (16:41.331)
18, you know, and even now with the support you get, there's a lot from the care system, something like a third end up on the streets, you know, but but back then, like 18, I got a letter, I've still got it somewhere, a copy of it on my computer. But we're from the Minister of Children's or whatever, just saying, you know, good luck, you know, and we urge you to make a will I'll never forget that I'll should dig it out and show you like as if what assets do you think I possibly have anyway, but that was the advice it was not like if you you need help, you know, for the next 12 months, selling in here's a number anyway, so

Alan Smith (16:59.916)
Wow.

Rich (17:10.307)
I and maybe having no choice in some cases is good. So I have to get off to you know, because I was interested in economics. I went to the central bank who were hiring and I and I managed to get a job and that you know, they only hand out like five managed to get the school leaver. And then you know, they are top some exam some sort of aptitude exam. So that allowed me to get in and then I worked two years

Alan Smith (17:14.253)
Hmm.

Rich (17:39.025)
and went to university at night. I worked harder than ever in my life, working all day and then going out to the university and doing lectures at night in maths and economics and then getting back home. like it was a long day, I saw the doctor for some reason, he told me to stop because I was doing too much. I worked and then I got after that, after the two years, got a full-time scholarship and life became dramatically easier.

Alan Smith (17:53.411)
Yeah.

Rich (18:07.557)
at around about 20.

Alan Smith (18:09.364)
Right, so after this period, you leave the foster family and then you're on your own and you're making a bit of money and you find a place to live then. You really have to be self-sufficient. You're just off you go, make your own way in the world, yeah.

Rich (18:14.738)
Yeah.

Rich (18:25.139)
Yeah, foster family, my foster father was hostile to me. He didn't really want me there, unfortunately. I don't know why I was there. I was only supposed to be there for a month. My foster mother took me in for a month and then just sort of I was in limbo, which wasn't very good for anyone. But they weren't hostile. I'm very close to my two foster brothers as well as my other siblings. But I moved out. I mean, was...

they didn't really have the money or, know, but they made it. I mean, I don't know. It's, you know, I mean, it's, that's also is complicated. You know, like I'm sort of part of their family, but I'm not, you know, I never felt, you know, anyway, so I went and got a, I got my job and I got a flat, you know, like a cheap flat near the uni. wasn't, you know, it was, it was pretty basic, but yeah. And then I went to uni at,

Alan Smith (18:54.637)
Yep.

Alan Smith (19:04.12)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (19:16.856)
Yeah, yeah. Where was this, in Sydney? Right, right, Yeah, no, okay. So just talk me through the next chapter of your life, because I know you began to really enjoy some success after that. You're working at the bank. What will the next few years look like then for you?

Rich (19:21.425)
Sydney, in Sydney by then. Yeah, still in Sydney. Yep, sorry I've jumped all over the place.

Rich (19:37.267)
Yeah, well, you know, wasn't so so so then I was at the central bank and you know, I did well at university, you know, so got first class honours in economics and econometrics. And and then naturally, the next step would be to do a PhD in because you're in the central bank, you know, like you take it very seriously, you know, academic, it's almost like being academic. And I had the chance of getting a scholarship because I had a scholarship to go to full time university. That's why I was able to go to full time. So I got one of the there's only three in Australia. So I got one of those.

which allowed me to go to a full-time university. And then I wasn't offered it, but the process is then I would get a full-time scholarship to go and do a PhD in most likely economics at Princeton or some very special university, know, the Ivy League or something. That's the next step. And that was my plan, which obviously is really exciting. I'm pretty happy by then to do that.

Alan Smith (20:27.822)
Sure.

Rich (20:28.605)
But I just remember thinking, golly, if I'm an academic, you know, in economics, if some coefficient is plus or minus one, you that's going to that's you spend your whole life and we're even in maths, what's my chance of cracking one of the big anyway. And then there was a thing called investment banking. And I had a friend from chess, actually. And he said, you should go to investment banking. You know, they're looking for young people and, know, and so I left the bank, the central bank and went into investment bank, you know, like called

Alan Smith (20:39.693)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (20:57.927)
Bank of Strust Australia, which was a very powerful investment bank in Australia at that time. So was lucky to get a job there and then took a pay cut to go there. And I thought that was very risky. I remember them saying, someone said, well, you know, can make a burnout. And I'm like, I need to make some money. I've got nothing. So I'll take that risk. And if I burn out, I burn out.

Alan Smith (21:00.931)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (21:18.006)
Yeah, the only way is up from here. So you dive into that, the world of investment banking, and how was it?

Rich (21:21.715)
Well, you can. Yeah, well, wouldn't say the only way is up because a lot of people you see the you see the winners, you see the survivor survivor bias, you see the survivors. I mean, you know, I was in a dealing room with 100 people and you know, some people come in, they're not they're not any good. They're out, you know, and that's what worried me because, you know, at the central bank, you know, you can be a bit average and you know, you're not going to lose your job, but you can lose. And then I thought, what's plan C, you know, anyway, fortunately,

Alan Smith (21:30.029)
Right, right.

Alan Smith (21:41.922)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rich (21:50.183)
I had a very sympathetic boss because I didn't side out fantastically really. Also because my confidence was still very low, they gave me any responsibility I was not ready for. But I had a lovely, who I'm still very close friends with, Julian. She was my boss and she nurtured me. I'd get upset because I was very sensitive and she sort of took me under her wing and gave me confidence and really built me up.

You know, along the way, having people like that in school, I didn't mention, but at school, you know, having the old school teacher who I'm still friends with, who take an interest in you makes so much difference. You just need one person. You don't need 20. It's just one person who just takes your side and said, don't worry, you you'll be okay. You know, and that meant so much to me. And, you know, she was that person in the investment bank.

Alan Smith (22:25.006)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (22:40.716)
Yeah, do you know, I think that is you make such an important point there. The idea just having a mentor or someone that you can confide in that sort of will keep your confidence and will give you encouragement and give you hope. I mean, that's just so valuable. And anyone listening to this, if they've got either themselves as the recipients of that or taking the time out to help people, perhaps a bit younger or bit further behind them on their own career journey, such an important thing to do for any of us. So that was obviously very.

impactful on your own progression and your career journey. So what part of investment banking were you doing? you trading? What was the role?

Rich (23:17.885)
Well, people don't know if everyone understands the word trading. often hear anyone who's invested. So when I first went, was because of my maths background, because I've got economics and maths, because of my maths background, I was working derivatives. this is, know, Excel had just started, you know, like a laptop. I didn't think we had laptops, they were just big computers, you know.

I did a lot of stuff with pen and paper and working out 10 year swaps, zero coupon swaps, all this kind of stuff, or options, just using the black shawl model, all this kind of stuff. So I did economics at maths at university and I was very lucky because that's the things I was interested in. All the smart kids were becoming a lawyer or a doctor, maybe an architect, maybe an engineer, but I just liked economics, maths, and it wasn't a very fashionable. Nowadays, it's like the hot degree, I think.

Alan Smith (24:13.858)
Yeah, yeah.

Rich (24:14.387)
But I did that because I had a lot. So I went in and people didn't have my math skills. And so that's why at the age of 23, next month I'm pricing up a $200 million swap. I'm the guy in the corner, the nerdy guy in the corner pricing it up and using a lot of pen and paper and stuff and hoping you don't get a plus or minus mixed up. especially when you're new. Anyway, so I went into derivatives and it was...

Alan Smith (24:19.534)
Mmm.

Alan Smith (24:27.64)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (24:32.792)
Yeah.

Rich (24:39.205)
It was so full of opportunities because there was opportunities where one market would be wronged compared to another market. Nowadays, everything is evened out. It's much harder to find inconsistencies. So I was able to find inconsistencies all over the place. And even in the same organization, I'd deal with the same bank and they'd do two different types of transactions, but they were related. they weren't using someone who really understood maths. So at a young age, at that age, was able to...

Alan Smith (24:43.31)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (24:46.648)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (25:04.226)
Yeah.

Rich (25:09.169)
make a lot of money for the bank. So suddenly I made them like 15 million or something, which is, it's a lot of money. know in the world of billionaires now, but in those days for a kid to come in from the world class suburbs and make them that, they were pretty happy with me.

Alan Smith (25:16.994)
Yeah, a lot of money, yeah.

Alan Smith (25:26.914)
Yeah. And then so you progress there. I'm just keen to know what the next chapter, you obviously a bit of a rising superstar then in the bank. People begin to pay attention to you. People begin to look at the money you're making for the bank. Yeah.

Rich (25:37.821)
Yeah, definitely. So I was doing that and I was not a risk taker. I was very anti-risk. Also, my personality then was very anti-risk. So everything was covered. But then sometimes you can't cover things. You can't hedge them. So it necessitated me taking a view. So I'd have to take a view on interest rates. I had to. I didn't want to. And then I found that with economic skills in those days, I was able to start

Alan Smith (25:50.153)
Hmm. Hmm.

Rich (26:07.793)
bets in the market or my views on the market would turn correct. So they said, hang on, that's even more valuable than designing derivatives. Can you just go and do that? Just go and take a team. So I had a team working for me and it would be basically me. I'd have people supporting me, giving me information I wanted. And then I'd say, OK, we're going to buy the Deutsche Mark or we're going to buy the French franc or we're going to sell interest rates in Japan. I was just covering so many markets. I always thought they would do 80 % of the work and I would come in and make the decision.

Alan Smith (26:29.677)
Yeah.

Rich (26:36.147)
the bakers of how they presented it to me and I would challenge them, they'd challenge me and I'd make the decision. So I had this good setup and so that became very successful and you know I think I can say, I'm not going say it now, but my salary went from you know, I'm a kid from foster kid you know, I think it went from 25,000 to 50,000. This is in the 80s, mid 80s, went from 25,000, 50,000, 100,000, 200,000, 250,000, half a million.

Alan Smith (26:58.146)
Yeah.

Rich (27:05.651)
1 million, 1.3 million, and then it might have stayed at 1.3 million. So it went like that. So suddenly I'm like, couldn't afford, you know. And I didn't believe it. Every...

Alan Smith (27:11.266)
Wow.

Alan Smith (27:18.295)
I mean, that's fascinating though at that time, and particularly with the background and where you've come from and based on what you've said, there was never a lot of money around. I'm intrigued by that whole thing. That's kind of obviously, you deserved it. There's a reason they're paying you that amount of money, because you're very talented and you're making a lot of money for your employer, for the bank. But how did that impact your day to day? Suddenly, having never experienced this, you're earning a million, more than a million dollars a year.

keep reflecting back, how did that change your life? It must have changed a lot.

Rich (27:47.357)
Well, you know-

Rich (27:51.421)
Well, you I was very lucky, I think, because I had imposter syndrome. So I really didn't think I was worth that. You know, I didn't think I was worth that. And I thought there's no way that's going to happen next year. They're going to find me out. You know, so I didn't go and waste it on Ferraris and, you know, and fancy watches. And, you know, you know, I was, I saved everything. I thought there's no way, right? This is, this is going to stop. Right. So I, I, I saved it all. So, so, and I, I wasn't, you know, I didn't, I still don't view myself as better than other people, but I,

Alan Smith (27:54.958)
Cry. Yeah.

Alright? Yeah.

Alan Smith (28:12.728)
Yeah.

Rich (28:21.183)
I viewed it as a big puzzle, know, financial markets. I was just so, I loved it. I just viewed it that I was figuring out, you know, these patterns and I was designing, because of my maths background, I was also designing trading models, know, what people now call algorithms. was doing designing all that way before people did it and they were successful. So I was just having so much fun and I could know anything. Like in those days, you didn't have Wikipedia or Google, you know, so I could find out any information. Like if I was interested in what trade unions in Germany were doing in Dresden, I could get

Alan Smith (28:38.723)
Yeah.

Rich (28:48.369)
a guy worked for me to go and look that up and tell me, are the unions going to go on strike? that going to cause inflation in Germany? Is that going to push up the Deutschmark and then have to increase interest rates? You know, was like, you know, all this kind of stuff. So I would just love that. I was mainly, I was mainly just enjoying the job. And I think that's another thing in retrospect, you know, you can make money, which was great. But it's enjoying your job is really important, really important. And, know, and I was, you know, I didn't, I didn't show it off.

Alan Smith (28:59.822)
Yeah, fascinating,

Alan Smith (29:15.15)
Yeah, you sounded like you had it all, didn't you? Yeah, you didn't show it off, but you enjoyed what you were doing. You were very, very good at it. And guess what? You were earning a lot of money at the same time. It's kind of almost the ideal set of circumstances that not everyone gets to enjoy. Let me ask you a question specific to that. You say you are, certainly then, you are risk averse and all the things. You didn't really want to take a bet on on the interest rate, the direction of travel, et cetera.

Rich (29:32.467)
Mmm.

Alan Smith (29:42.744)
Would you say you're still risk averse, broadly, or have you lost that aversion to taking risks?

Rich (29:48.391)
Yeah, I want to be risk averse. I think risk averse is a good thing. I know that might be sound really weird. But, you know, I accept risk as a part of what I do. I don't want risk. If I could do exactly what I was doing without risk, I wouldn't want risk. My job is to minimize risk. So it's a bit like, I don't know, it's a bit like, it's an accepted cost of what I'm doing. But if you...

If I ever had a trader working for me and I didn't give them, you know, it's not that when we talk about traders, there's not that many people whose view you trust. So I was the only one who actually took a view. All the others are doing work, you know, and on their discretion, you know. But if I ever felt sometimes I'd let them trade a little bit. But if I ever felt that someone was getting or I was getting ever the joy of gambling, like, let's go along the euro, for example.

Alan Smith (30:27.928)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (30:34.179)
Okay.

Alan Smith (30:41.39)
Mm.

Rich (30:44.455)
just part of it is like, this is kind of fun. Like having a punt on a football match. This is kind of fun. Like, let's see what happens. If I ever felt that I was get that feeling that I would like to check myself or if I ever thought that someone was, you know what I mean? And it is fun. It is fun to have a scratchy. We all like that, a scratchy and whatever, you know? It's all a bit of fun. which is fine. But you can't, you know, you have to hate risk, but I'm going to take it because I believe these odds are so good that I'm going to take them. So.

Alan Smith (30:46.978)
bright.

Alan Smith (30:58.595)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich (31:14.48)
So I always have this silly expression that say, you know, that risk is a four letter word ending in K.

Alan Smith (31:21.23)
Be careful how you use it. Exactly. Exactly right. And yeah, I think that's very interesting as well, because I can imagine I've never been in my own career, but I've certainly known others who have and there's a fine line between planned, managed risk and execution and just and having a punt, having a gamble. And I'd imagine you could get caught up.

Rich (31:26.917)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Alan Smith (31:45.006)
and the environment you're in, let's just have a punt, let's have a bet on this, as you say, the Euro, the dollar or something. So it takes a certain amount of self-discipline just to remind yourself that there are risk frameworks that you wanna operate within. So your ability to do that obviously served you very, very well. And where does the story go from there? What was this kind of next chapter in your life?

Rich (31:50.355)
Mm. Mm.

Rich (32:05.907)
Yeah, well, so I ended up staying at the Central Bank, sorry, there was the Investment Bank there for 10 years and doing that and having a good experience and then I got hired by a secretive outfit, you know, can't say too much, you know, just for the privacy because it was a private entity, it wasn't a public entity or, you know, listed or company or anything, in Bermuda and I went there and did

Alan Smith (32:26.103)
Hmm.

Rich (32:34.291)
pretty well the same thing that I was doing for the investment bank and had success here, which enabled me to retire when I was 35. Then I'm 34, so that's 13, 14 years. So then I was able to retire at 34. And because of my background, I've got the comfort of I can live in a shed. I've been there.

Alan Smith (32:43.747)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (32:48.407)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (32:59.448)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (33:01.523)
So when I made that amount of money, thought, well, why do I want all this money? And so I moved to Monaco with my wife then. And then I realized I wasn't as rich as I thought when I looked around and saw everybody else. But you know, I've never really, I'm a working class kid, you know, I've never really, you know, so then I retired, call it retired from sort of having a boss, I guess, or having someone to be responsible to. And then

Alan Smith (33:13.71)
Right, yeah.

Alan Smith (33:20.686)
Hmm.

Rich (33:30.791)
Then I kind of didn't do much. I did a bit of writing and then, but I really, and then I just sort of got pulled gradually into business, which I found fascinating. So then I started the business career.

Alan Smith (33:43.478)
Okay, let me pause you there for a second. So I know you can't talk an awful lot about it, but so you lived in Bermuda and you were working for this private, I guess you would generically call it a hedge fund, some investment company that was doing the same sort of things that you were doing historically at the bank. I mean, what was life like for you, again, from this kid from the outback in Australia now living in Bermuda and all the...

kind of trappings that come with that. Did you enjoy your time there, just on a personal basis?

Rich (34:15.731)
Yeah, met people around about that time who were very, very wealthy and weren't that happy. And despite everything, I've always, well, since I've been about 10, I think, I've been quite happy. mean, you and I met, you're very happy. We're just sort of happy. My bounce back, you bounce back to that happy sort of person. so kind of it.

Alan Smith (34:33.73)
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, we have.

Rich (34:42.931)
And I never felt that money was reflective of me. I'd rather be thought of for having intellect and being caring and being, and I find a lot of people showing off money. don't find, I know everyone says that, it wasn't, it's not enough for me. So it's not bad.

Alan Smith (34:48.078)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (34:55.928)
Right.

Alan Smith (35:05.752)
Did you feel a bit just, yeah, but did you feel just a little bit uncomfortable, surrounded by all this wealth and I guess people and private jets and all that kind of lifestyle? You just felt that it wasn't really you at your core, your core personality wasn't like them.

Rich (35:20.499)
Well, you know, I was quite, you know, when you're in a care system, you know, I turned to different people, you know, and at one point it was Jesus. And so in my mid, know, when I was 15 or 16, I was quite religious, used to read the Bible a lot, and I was going to be a minister, and then I sort of abandoned it for intellectual reasons, believe it or not. But I've kind of kept that, you know, I think I still have that, you know, I don't find, you know,

Alan Smith (35:41.454)
Okay.

Rich (35:49.211)
I'm always aware that if I don't wear shoes for a month, some child who is dying might live. I can never get that. I'm not saying I'm not better than anyone else, but I don't know where to put all that. But certainly showing it off. But again, when I was in, I really didn't think it was going to last. Having said all that, when I moved to Bermuda, I bought a Ferrari. I had a boat. I had a couple of years where I kind of had the toys.

Alan Smith (36:02.466)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (36:12.494)
Right.

Rich (36:17.367)
And then I had Home House, so was sort of main owner of this club in London. So I had sort of, I had all the toys and then, you know, but then I kind of, then after kind of woke up and then sort of pulled away from it a bit. So I did have my period where, you know.

Alan Smith (36:17.506)
Right.

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, we'll come on to that, yeah.

Alan Smith (36:32.27)
Yeah, you went through that phase of the toys and all the accoutrements. I read somewhere that you bought a boat from Ralph Schumacher, is that right? Okay, so that's, yeah, I guess it wasn't a dinghy. It was a substantial boat. All right.

Rich (36:37.788)
Yeah.

Rich (36:51.171)
no, nothing like you might imagine. didn't have the money Michael had. Michael Schumacher. But it was a nice boat. there's a funny story. I took it out with my ex-wife. As I said, we're really friends with a bunch of people. And we had a captain pull back in. It's 60 foot. So it's not tiny, but it's not huge. It's a good size boat. if you park it next to some boats, it's... Anyway.

Alan Smith (36:56.95)
Right, okay. Yeah.

Alan Smith (37:05.87)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (37:11.96)
Yeah.

Sure.

Rich (37:18.899)
it went up the top taking photos as we come back in into Monaco. And my lovely ex wife, she leant back on the throttle, you know, there's a throttle on the top deck and she leant back on the throttle. And luckily the boat was tied up the engine still running because you keep the engine running until you're tied up. It's being tied up, you know, moored up and then but she put it into full reverse. And so the boat just went bang into this concrete mooring smash and you hear this very loud. And but actually, Ralph

Schumacher had been down at the port at that time. And he thought, there's my old boat. I'll go and say hello. And he's with, he's with Julian Lennon, John Lennon's son, you know, we've heard of him, right? And, and, they go wandering down to see the boat. And then that's exactly when bang, the boat smashes into the mooring and, know, and luckily it was sort of superficial damage, but it was a little bit, it's a bit embarrassing to see, to see Ralph and Julian.

Alan Smith (37:58.718)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Alan Smith (38:08.013)
Wow.

Alan Smith (38:16.046)
He's saying his old boat. It's, yeah, yeah, we just made a mistake. It's quite incredible actually, along there in Monaco, on the harbor, which I've been, you as a tourist and you walk along and as you get further, you walk further and further out along the kind of the mooring, the jetty pier thing, and the boats just get bigger.

Rich (38:17.871)
in those same sentences. It's like we know how to work it.

Alan Smith (38:37.358)
and bigger, think, my God, look at the size of this. And you walk another 10 meters, you see a bigger and bigger one. It's just quite incredible. I often think about some of these guys, millionaires and billionaires, they're all kind of lining up against each other. And someone comes in with a boat which is like one meter bigger than theirs. And so they have to go and buy another one. It's just a never ending, never ending game. And you see plenty of that in that part of the world. So yeah, I'm just getting this sense. So you and I are Monaco with this and Ferrari and all that kind of.

Rich (38:44.146)
Yes.

Rich (38:55.407)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan Smith (39:07.02)
Lifestyle and then ultimately you decide it's not for you. No longer do you want to live that lifestyle? Yeah

Rich (39:11.827)
Well, know, I just needed to, you know, I mean, I've worked really hard since I was at school, know, so, you know, really hard and had a tough time, you know, so I think it was just a bit of relief and, you know, also when you're doing what I was doing and, you know, looking at economic statistics, waiting for an inflation number to come out or this, you know, the market to move and, you know, 24 hours a day and, you know, I just thought I'll have a rest. But so after, I don't know how long it was, after a year or more,

Alan Smith (39:20.76)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (39:41.491)
You know, I just felt the need to do something stimulating. So I got pulled into business.

Alan Smith (39:45.23)
Mmm.

Alan Smith (39:49.814)
Okay. So talk me through, one thing I'm always interested in, in that kind of lifestyle and, even, you know, throughout this time, you mentioned your wife now ex-wife and you, and you got children. One of the biggest challenges I always, you know, observe and see, you know, experienced myself to some extent, a lot of business people that I know is the classic. And it's a bit of a cliche to talk about it. We call it work life balance or getting some sort of equilibrium or balance in your life or for yourself.

for your personal, for your personality, for your health, and for the relationships around you. mean, what have you done to kind of protect and manage that work-life balance for yourself?

Rich (40:32.663)
that's probably a question I'm not very good at answering. I don't know. I think when you're working for yourself, you have a lot more flexibility. I suppose like when I was running a fund and doing all that, then... And the trouble is, if you really like your job, I mean, it's way more interesting than talking to people. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. So, I don't know the answer to that. since...

Alan Smith (40:48.332)
Hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (40:57.772)
Yeah, you're still working on it, right?

Rich (41:00.497)
Yeah, I mean, since I've been in business, try to, know, work half the time and have half the time off to do other stuff. know, that's my goal.

Alan Smith (41:06.786)
Right. Right.

Okay, okay, that makes sense. So just sort of to catch up with your story, so you decide to, come to the UK to make the UK your home. So at that point, you've kind of formally retired at age 34, fabulous. But then the of the draw of business just takes you in again and you start looking around. let me ask you, what did you invest and why did you buy or buy into and invest in this?

Private Members Club. In fact, for the people who don't know about it, it's worth just having a minute or what Home House actually is and then tell us why you got involved.

Rich (41:46.867)
Well, so as a chess player, and you know, I played quite serious chess. So, you know, I stopped when I was 20. I sort of had the opportunity to come to London from Sydney. Someone was going to sort of sponsor me to play. And I remember at the age of 20 thinking if I'm the most amazing chess player, you know, how good am I going to be? You know, give us a break, you and then maybe I'll be good for a couple of years. And but even if I if I managed to get in the top 50, it's a tough life. There's not money in it. And I'm like, so I kind of gave up chess, but

Alan Smith (42:07.15)
Hmm.

Rich (42:15.827)
I went back to it later and ended up playing in a cup of chess Olympiads. That sounds better than it is. I'm going to play for Bermuda and Monaco, which is the smaller countries. But I did okay. did okay. Anyway, but through that chess connection, so I remember there was two things. thought, even if I was at that point, I wanted to do law. And I thought, even if I'm a really shitty lawyer, I'm going to make more money than the world chess champion. And I also realized by that stage, I'd realized that back then chess wasn't as cool as it is now.

Alan Smith (42:20.878)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (42:27.691)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (42:39.67)
Right.

Rich (42:45.359)
And if I said to a girl that I'm a chess player, she'd be like that, she'd be gone. You know, so anyway, I sort of gave up chess at 20 for a while, but having played chess, I started playing it again in Bermuda. And I met this lovely friend of mine called David, who's called David Norwood, who went to Oxford University, a Bolton boy working class like me, but went to Oxford anyway, and he was interested in business. was doing sort of, he was working at an investment bank here, a small boutique bank, and he was sort of arranging finance for small companies.

Alan Smith (42:48.818)
Right, okay.

Rich (43:13.169)
And we started talking, we originally talked about chess, but then we way more interested in what he was doing because I thought, well, that's a real sort of almost arbitrage because these small companies can be taken to good valuations relatively easily. That's what I thought. Anyway, so then we started knocking around and talk about business. he and I were the first two people to spin out, as far as I know, to spin out companies out of Oxford University and maybe out of any university in the UK because he went to Oxford, so we went back to Oxford.

Alan Smith (43:25.582)
Hmm.

Rich (43:43.167)
We had to convince the professors not to publish what they do before we patented. Basic stuff like this. Margaret Thatcher had just changed the rules so that they could own some equity. So was a good time. so we started doing that. And about the same time, Dave, Dave Norwood, he knew the manager from Simpsons on the Strand, who'd always wanted to start a private members club. And he'd found this beautiful building just north of Oxford Street.

Alan Smith (43:47.929)
Yep. Yep.

Alan Smith (43:53.538)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (44:04.718)
Mm-hmm.

Rich (44:11.257)
Georgian masterpiece, more than 200 years old, 40,000 square feet, beautiful, like the Palace of Versailles, all the ceilings done, especially this ornate staircase which splits in two and goes like that, just an absolute beauty, but dilapidated, amazing history. Everyone had been there, from Earl Grey to the French Embassy during the Revolution. Anyway, he wanted to do it up and turn it into a members club.

Alan Smith (44:16.994)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (44:35.411)
You know any and I've been a few of these members club and you know I was used to New York because I lived in Bermuda and you'd go into a beautiful place and you could wear you know, maybe a jacket, know, but you'd come here and you'd go to these members clubs just full of old men and I'm an old man myself so whatever but full of old men and You know, it might be sleep in the corner places empty. No women. No young people had no mobile phones and I said to said to Brian the

Alan Smith (44:46.595)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (44:54.338)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (45:04.179)
the one who wanted to start the club, said to him, well, I'll do it, but I want to have it like what I like, because I had to put in a bunch of money. And I said, I want no dress code, and I want plenty of women, want young people, old people, young people, all races, working class people, dogs, whatever. And I said, and I think it was a horrified, but I put up half the money, and so he agreed to it.

Alan Smith (45:05.869)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (45:11.682)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (45:31.953)
Off we went and it was a very shaky start because in those days it'd be so easy now because that building is, have you been? Home house? Yeah, such a beautiful building. Can you imagine on Instagram? Like just put a few photos on that, we would have been flying. But we had 18 bedrooms which are beautiful, each one unique. nothing like, you know, and they were cheaper than staying down in the road, you know, because we're brand new club, we're trying to get people in. And, you know, but we couldn't get people to come. But on Instagram now, we'll just get one social influence, whatever.

Alan Smith (45:39.17)
Yeah, yeah, many times. yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. unbelievable. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (46:00.074)
that would just blow up completely. It's very, very, yeah, it's so photogenic, the building itself, it's just so photogenic, all the things that you could now, you could publish online everywhere, yeah. Even you and I, that's how good the building is. Yeah, us old boys, exactly. actually, yeah.

Rich (46:01.551)
I mean, it would just fly, you know, but we couldn't.

Rich (46:07.739)
Yeah, even you and I look good, which is a picture standing there, you know. Even us, yeah, even us old white guys. So I saw that. Yeah, so.

Alan Smith (46:23.64)
Yeah, go on. So you launched it and that was quite a few years ago. It's still going strong now from what I see is thriving, busy place. And I agree with you. It's a great club to go to associate. You can do business if you want to, if you just want to hang out and have a drink or something to eat. So it's great. But that was a kind of quite a different departure from you. You never had experience, I don't think, based on what you said in terms of hospitality and all that kind of industry. it's great. You built something.

Rich (46:29.201)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (46:50.616)
that you want to, you build a club that you want to be a member of. That kind of idea. You didn't want to be a member of all the other stuffy type clubs, which you're right there. And some of them are still around, but they're not very attractive. I don't think they're growing, those kind of old gentleman type clubs. So that's great. Tell me also, worth a quick shout out, because more recently you also started, it's like effectively a sister club, which I'm a member of, called, a sister club called Homegrown.

Rich (47:13.959)
Watch out. I'm good.

Alan Smith (47:17.486)
Yeah, which Homegrown, which is a private members club. What was the thinking behind, know, because this club was so successful, you start another one? Why did you start Homegrown?

Rich (47:25.197)
No, no, I can't take any credit whatsoever for Homegrown. Homegrown is fantastic. It's fantastic. mean, you know, they, no, we sold Homehouse in 2010 or something. We got, you know, we got a good price. And sometimes you get to a point where you don't think you're taking it any further. I mean, we kind of struggled. You know, it did well because of what it was. But, know, when asked, you know, asked me how to manage.

Alan Smith (47:28.84)
Okay, yeah.

Alan Smith (47:42.177)
Okay.

Rich (47:52.195)
I was always too scared to have another one anywhere in the world. Soho House was following a similar model. Anyway, so we sold, but I remained very close to the club. I'm a life member. It's like my second home. And Andrew Richardson, the new manager, he started Homegrown, which was fantastic. And I was skeptical at first because you've seen what happened to WeWork, example. But this is a club, it's a community, and they've created a community, and they've made business fun. Now that ain't always easy.

Alan Smith (48:02.05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

Alan Smith (48:14.872)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (48:20.526)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And I will give a little positive shout out. I've been a founder member of Homegrown since they opened and it's exactly that. There is a community, it's designed for entrepreneurs as they call it. You can do work there if you want, loads of events and loads of interesting things. And I think that that is just a good thing to have where like-minded people can congregate, know, since time began, wherever you are, you know, being around other people and it's just kind of...

Rich (48:30.099)
Mm.

Alan Smith (48:48.962)
Those spontaneous conversations, just bouncing someone off over a cup of coffee or something is a great thing to do. So yeah, homegrown is going from strength to strength, which is great. But now I want to pivot back because somewhere around this time, I'm not sure exactly when, know somewhere around this time, something happened which it kind of raised your profile significantly, which was you were invited to appear on a very well known television show called Dragons Then. So what happened? Where did the invitation come from?

Tell us about that story.

Rich (49:20.637)
Well, I actually came through Home House indirectly. think I was doing some stuff for CNBC, know, I doing little clips on business. I can't remember how I got into that. do like a five minute. They interviewed me about a business I had and then I started doing interviewing other people. said, we like you on the camera, you know? And so then I started doing little interviews of other people and they liked that. And I think BBC saw that. And then when the Home House was having troubles,

Alan Smith (49:38.894)
Hmm.

Rich (49:46.707)
They did a show on Home House called Trouble at the Top, which was a half hour show about how Home House was struggling to, know, and I was on that. So when they started Dragon's Den, before they even started it, they interviewed me about going on the show and then they didn't take me. I think they might've said, we'll keep you for a future series. don't know. And then on the third and fourth series, know, then they brought me on.

Alan Smith (49:53.39)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (50:09.805)
Okay.

Rich (50:14.673)
So was because I've been on the TV for Home House, think. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (50:17.025)
Right.

Okay. And so you did did season three and season four there for a couple of years. What were you reflecting back on that? I mean, was that an enjoyable period? Did you did you learn much from from the experience?

Rich (50:25.576)
Mm.

Rich (50:33.139)
I learned a lot about TV. was very nervous the first day it's filming. still remember I was very nervous. I'm friends with all the dragons, but they didn't make it. It wasn't like, here Richard, we'll ask you this easy question so you can look good on this one. was just like, even they just talk over you. You come up with a good idea, they just take it. So it was pretty cutthroat and the BBC encouraged that because they wanted to almost not to like each other. And it was quite

Alan Smith (51:00.16)
Yeah.

Rich (51:02.675)
You know, it's quite tough on the entrepreneurs. You know, I was shocked. You know, was shocked. You know, I don't speak to people like that. You know, so I was sometimes shocked.

Alan Smith (51:12.718)
Well, yeah, this is the thing. Yeah, you came across and I, it was a few years ago now, but I definitely remember watching that and speaking to others. You came across as a nice guy and I was always wondering whether that this was old stage. You have some of the others, Peter Jones and others pretty, was it Duncan Valentine? I can't remember, but some of them pretty hardcore, pretty rude, I suppose to these entrepreneurs. And you were always, I guess kind is the word, you're pretty kind. was that something, I guess that's your natural way of being, but was that, that was encouraged?

We'll have the tough guys and the nicer guy.

Rich (51:45.511)
I know, you know, I think as I said before, you know, like because I was so shy at one point, you know, when someone's and you know, they're all very few people came on that set without being intimidated. So I think I felt that that I felt about other shy people. But also I didn't really, I don't really understand, you you come on, they're not bad people. just come on with an idea. Like, you know, sometimes they say you're an idiot, but you know, what do they know? Like they'd say, what's your third year gross margin forecast?

Alan Smith (52:00.024)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (52:15.022)
I

Rich (52:15.219)
I heard people ask questions like that, not pointing any names, but someone's come up with an invention. I give this in my book, actually, but sometimes I use it about Alexander Fleming. If he discovers penicillin, it's all a petri dish, he comes in, blah, blah, and can have antibiotics. And they'd be like, what's your third year gross?

Alan Smith (52:18.968)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (52:31.48)
Yeah.

Rich (52:36.051)
margin forecast, where's your pattern? And it'd be there, but I thought you guys were the business people, I've just got this invention, I don't know, maybe it can be commercialized. Show us your business plan, where'd you get your two fingers from? It was not how I assess a business. If you came to me and you were not a business person, you came to me with a business, like Trunke went on there, those little suitcases that kids ride around at the airport, and I tried to invest, I didn't do a deal, but I'm the only one who tried to invest. But Theo just ripped off the strap. It's a freaking prototype.

Alan Smith (52:54.232)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich (53:02.823)
Why is ripping off a strap, sorry, I like Theo, he's a friend of mine, but why is ripping off a strap, off a prototype, a proof of concept? And yet you get away with that. So you're sitting in these powerful chairs and you go, how could you waste my time with that? And so I wasn't really into that. I'd be like, well, and also sometimes the idea was, let's say, not the best idea from the entrepreneur. what's the point? I'm not a bully.

Alan Smith (53:15.864)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (53:29.735)
I'd rather just say, listen, sorry, mate, but I'd rather tell him why. So, know, because there's too much competition or because you haven't got the price or because, you know, whatever.

Alan Smith (53:33.272)
Mmm.

Alan Smith (53:37.772)
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's good for ratings. Maybe people like watching this kind of drama play out. mean, would you say that it's fairly realistic in terms of just the setup? if you have any other founder coming to you for investment, because I know you've made lots of investments, is it reasonably reflective of what happens in terms of the kind of the pitch, the questions?

Rich (54:01.043)
Well, you know, by the time I went on, you know, I'd already been able to do my due diligence because I could see this on TV before I went on. And I'll tell you that it's very real. So, you know, the filming is genuine. You're like when you come on, you haven't seen, you know, the surprise you get. It's not like there's any rehearsals and you know what it is when you work on it unless they've changed it. But so that's very real. And in terms of what I do, I found it very real. Like that's why I was, you know, I almost didn't go on the show because friends, you know, I lived in Monaco, I had a nice life. You know, why do I want to be

Alan Smith (54:11.171)
Mm.

Rich (54:30.759)
people recognize me, know, it's the last thing you want. If you've enough, if you're sort of wealthy, you don't necessarily want fame, you know. Anyway, but what I liked about the show was it seemed to me that there were young people and old people watching it, people from all different walks of demographies, you know. But what was on the show, I found very educational. that to me, you know, a lot of kids now, I imagine, are talking about first mover advantage, unique selling point, patents, know, margins, you know, all this stuff I wouldn't have had a clue about.

Alan Smith (54:36.856)
That's right.

Alan Smith (54:44.622)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (54:55.672)
Yep.

Rich (54:59.507)
So I think it's very educational that way and they're assessing a deal. So I think it's really, they call it reality TV, but I think it's real TV. So you're doing a deal. Yeah, I think it's very similar.

Alan Smith (55:06.816)
Yeah, it is fairly reflective. Yeah, of real life.

You made a number of invest... What was your most successful investment of all the companies you invested in?

Rich (55:19.461)
in on Dragon's Stand would be Rego Rego Source.

Alan Smith (55:20.877)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (55:24.942)
Right, yeah. That one's always mentioned as, I mean, I'm not sure where they are now, but as one of the most successful ever companies that a founder went on. Are you, you, yeah. All right. Wow.

Rich (55:26.524)
Yeah.

Rich (55:33.169)
Yeah, I've got it on my YouTube channel and it's had a million views or something. Unfortunately, I can't charge for it because actually the footage doesn't belong to me. But yeah, it's just incredibly, you know, he's amazing. He's amazing. that I didn't make any money on all the others, you know, but that's normal. know, it's a startup business as a one in 10, know, so that's normal. But fortunately, that paid for.

Alan Smith (55:48.76)
Yeah, Levi.

Rich (56:02.739)
I made a profit out of Dragon Center, which is probably not that easy.

Alan Smith (56:07.308)
Yeah, I mean, but that's generally, that's the pattern, isn't it, for what we call startups, angel investments. You're looking for one, at least one, hopefully, that's gonna shoot the lights out and cover the losses you potentially made elsewhere. moving that forward, as we speak now, I mean, from what I have read and researched, you're an investor or have invested in over 100 companies over the years.

And interestingly, across a wide range, it's not as if you focus on one vertical. mean, almost every different type of sector and industry, it seems to me, in terms of companies you've invested in. What would you say, what are the kind of the key, what's the magic ingredient for the successful companies? If you look across your portfolio, the ones that have done really, really well, what things have they specifically done which has been different to the other companies which have generated their success?

Rich (57:00.391)
I think it's one word, it's people. A good person, a talented person can make an average idea work, but an average person will stuff up a very good idea. It's all about people. And that's why I think I've ended up backing so many different sectors, because you get impressed by the person.

Alan Smith (57:21.632)
Right

Rich (57:29.555)
I try to understand the person. I've invested in like seven or eight semiconductor companies. I don't know anything about semiconductor. So it's about evaluating that person and how other people evaluate that. And if you get the right person, sometimes the right person can fail, but it's almost a necessary condition that you have good people. sometimes you find out too late, but it's about backing people. For me, it is.

Alan Smith (57:50.392)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (57:55.266)
Yeah, I get that. you meet them, you understand me, you ask them questions, and I guess you got a sixth sense for it. Just understanding, is this the sort of person I can work with that is likely to achieve success?

Rich (58:06.097)
Yeah, well, I'd love to, you know, I've even toured with coming up with some psychological tests that identifies people that, you know, I always say that, you know, the one ingredient of a successful entrepreneur, the one ingredient is that they are not lazy. I've never met a lazy successful entrepreneur. I mean, it probably applies to success in general, although, know, but I've never met a lazy, so they can be old, young, black, white, educated, uneducated, blah, blah, you know, but.

Alan Smith (58:11.416)
Hmm, yeah.

Alan Smith (58:32.44)
Yeah, yeah.

Rich (58:36.059)
You cannot be lazy. You just cannot. And I'm not lazy. you pick up the energy, you know, you pick up energy from people and you know that they're excited or, you know, I mean, what do you think? That's probably, probably it.

Alan Smith (58:37.814)
Yeah, there isn't. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Smith (58:47.18)
Hmm. No, I agree that that that that you're right. It is hard. There is not you can't put your finger on one thing, but you there is a thing we've all got a, you know, a sense of when you meet somebody, you engage with them, the language they use, the kind of their energy, as you say, their energy. But that is one core guaranteed element, which is an appetite for hard work, not shirking, not taking the day off necessarily.

Rich (59:13.608)
Mm.

Alan Smith (59:16.898)
you know, too many times, you know, putting the, know, putting the graft in, just rolling up the shirt sleeves and getting on with stuff and doing it consistently day after day. And you see examples around the world, you know, Elon Musk being the prime example of a, classic entrepreneur. And he's, certainly puts a long, long day in every day from what I can see, from what I can see. Now, obviously you've accumulated a vast wealth of knowledge.

Rich (59:21.747)
Mmm.

Rich (59:33.629)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (59:40.59)
over the years. was very interested when you and I met recently, you were telling me you were quite excited because you're about to, I'm not sure if you've done it yet, but you're about to publish not one, but two books. having not, I mean, I know you've written a book before, tell me, well, tell me all about that. Why are you publishing two books? What are the two books and why should we be going out to buy them and read them?

Rich (59:51.027)
Yeah.

Rich (01:00:02.675)
Well, you know, I'm not, you know, they wouldn't let me sell home house, you know, when I was, you know, because I'm not really a salesman, you know, I always feel like, I'll give you a copy, you know, like, or I know if you don't want to buy it, don't buy, you know, like, it's funny. Yes, like having a painting, you know, you'll finish a painting, and if you almost don't want to show it to anyone, in case I don't like it, you know, I like it, you know, and I'm not going to change my life if people buy it or not, you know, anyway, so having said all those, you know, ridiculous things, I do have my book, my desk, he's got lots of, you know, this is a book I wrote years ago.

Alan Smith (01:00:13.656)
Yeah.

Alan Smith (01:00:20.674)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan Smith (01:00:26.465)
Yeah

Rich (01:00:32.285)
called Taming the Lion. Anyway, I'm not showing it for any advertising reasons. it did and it did very, well. You know, very well books, I don't know what the graph is called anyway, but JK Rowling, she sells a million copies, you know, but to have a book, I think they sold about 25,000, which was I was very happy with, you know. And it got amazing reviews in the the in the press, you know, you can go on Amazon and you get some guy from

Alan Smith (01:00:32.792)
Yeah, yep.

Alan Smith (01:00:47.276)
Sure, yeah.

Alan Smith (01:00:52.206)
That's good, yeah.

Rich (01:00:59.475)
where some little town in middle of nowhere goes, it's obvious. I'm like, well, I'm the one who ran the fund, dude. You know, like, I don't know, part of it, you get like, what are you know, it's okay if it's so obvious, you know, but anyway, it's got a, so I'm re-releasing that one. So there's really three books coming out. That one is called Taming the Lion. That's about finance, re-releasing it with a new Ford. That's about trading finance, trading markets, trading currencies, trading interest rates. And it's called Taming the Lion because...

Alan Smith (01:01:05.208)
Right.

Alan Smith (01:01:13.368)
Wow, okay. All right.

Alan Smith (01:01:21.783)
Alright, okay.

Rich (01:01:25.649)
It's a bit like we're talking about with risk. know, the first, if you're taming a lion, you have to start with respect for the lion. If you walk in thinking that lion's easy, no problem, come over here lion, I'll pat you, you're dead. So, so I called it taming the lions, but first off, you have to respect, assume you're going to lose money, assume why would you do this? Anyway, so that's got a hundred, so I'm re-releasing that. And because that got such a good response and I started enjoying the writing process, that took 10 years to write. The next one took 10 years to write.

I enjoy writing. I can't play any musical instruments. can't paint, know, but, but, you know, because I was, read a lot, voraciously when I was a kid, because I was so introverted. I read a lot. So I think if you can read, you can write anyway. So I wrote, I decided that is about finance. I decided to do one about business. And so it's called humble stumbles about stumbling through. And I've done quite a bit of public speaking. So I've kind of learned what is, what people are like hearing about.

Alan Smith (01:01:59.629)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Alan Smith (01:02:21.112)
Hmm.

Rich (01:02:21.233)
and people, know, stories are easy to tell. So it's got a lot of stories in it and it's got strategies in there. It happens to be 47 strategies. I did think of just sort of making up three more to get to 50, but it's got 47 strategies in there and it's got a lot of stories. And this one, where the other one is quite impersonal, look at has the one about finances is a lot. It has stories about when I was trading different currencies or gold or whatever. This one has a story of home house, a story of a tennis racket company who had the story of roots, a story of

Alan Smith (01:02:42.838)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (01:02:49.875)
I said that, know, but all these different stories, know, just pharmaceutical companies I invested, but also it's got personal stuff. It's got like, what's it like going through the care system? You know, it's got, it's got inventions that I had in the middle of the night, you know, and whether I could make them work. It's got, it's very personal and flippant at times. It's got what's my business card that I use sometimes just to get attention. It's stuff like that. So it's, it's really fun.

Alan Smith (01:02:51.544)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great stories, yeah.

Alan Smith (01:03:13.294)
That's called, what do you say? Humble stumbles.

Rich (01:03:18.247)
Humble stumbles and the next line, which I was very happy to get so many S's, was called strategies, stories, and soul searching from a serial entrepreneur. That's the next line. Yeah. But it really is that. It's strategies. It's got strategies in it, which, know, like don't, and it's got, you know, it's a lot about disruption, discovery, defense, defense, you know, lot about those three, dealing with infinite startups where companies, some companies you compete with now just spend infinite amount of money, especially American ones.

Alan Smith (01:03:28.664)
well that's the others the year

Alan Smith (01:03:45.56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (01:03:46.407)
dealing with them, know, segregating markets. It's got a lot of stuff about that. Then it's got stories, which stuff, as I say, like Rego Rega Source, things like that, other companies I've invested in. And then it's got soul searching, where you talk about how you feel, you know, how I felt about going on TV, you know, what it's like on Dragon's Den, you know, how you felt being in the care system, you know, so it's quite personal. So I'm quite, and that again took 10 years. That took 10 years to write as well. Yeah.

Alan Smith (01:04:08.462)
That sounds, that took 10 years. I mean, that sounds fabulous. Exactly the sort of book that I would read and enjoy. Is that published now? Is it out? Can you buy it on Amazon or anywhere? it?

Rich (01:04:20.403)
Well, I think by the time this comes out, you'll be able to buy it on Amazon, yes. But you can pre-order it, you can pre-order it. Called Humble Stumbles.

Alan Smith (01:04:24.63)
Okay. Pre-order, okay. You can give me link to this afterwards. I'll put a link in the show notes if anyone sort of listens or downloads this and goes straight to do it. Because it sounds, I for one, you definitely sell one copy on the first day when it's available. I'll buy that. It sounds great.

Rich (01:04:33.697)
Thank you.

Rich (01:04:37.971)
Well, you know, I've got to say, I've got to say for 12 quid or whatever it's going to be, that's fricking amazing. I mean, I just think myself, you know, I'm not, not, I don't really, I don't really blow my own trumpet, but shit, it's got everything in there. It was ripped the heart out of me, you know, about everything I know about business. Now you may not like agree with me, but you can read it and you know, say that's wrong or, you know, like it ripped the heart out of me. so anyway, so.

Alan Smith (01:04:58.99)
Yeah, Well, it took you 10 years to write it and like, as they say, London buses, then you wait for 10 years and then two come along at once. So what's the other book that you're about to publish?

Rich (01:05:11.603)
Well, I went to Bali, you know, to see my daughter lives there. And, so was finishing off Humble Stumbles. And then I finished it, you know, finished that first draft. And then I thought, you know, when I was religious, I really liked Jesus' stories, all the parables. And then I also liked Aesop's fables, you know, the hare and the tortoise, the little lessons like that. And then I also always liked Greek mythology, you the story of Hercules and all those, you know, but it's not a baby story.

Alan Smith (01:05:30.998)
Mmm, yeah.

Alan Smith (01:05:36.418)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich (01:05:39.731)
But I decided, hang on, these lessons could be put into a story, you know, for, for say 16, you know, 14, 15, 18, you know, adults can read it. Adults have been reading it and really enjoying it. And I thought in some ways it's got a lot of the lessons that, that it's got like 15 things happened to, to, to Ricky. It's called Ricky, Ricky means business, right? But it's got like 15 things happened to Ricky that happened to me in my business career, where I made a mistake or I got something right. I had to react to something. So each chapter.

Alan Smith (01:05:51.949)
Right.

Alan Smith (01:06:01.837)
Okay.

Rich (01:06:09.427)
is a reaction and it just became a natural story and I've always wanted to write fiction. So I just started writing this thing in Bali and like, I, you know, I call it Ricky means business, I'm Richard, but actually I wrote it not for any gender, you know, not for any woke agenda, but I wanted, cause I've got a daughter as well as two sons, I wanted Ricky to be either boy or girl. So it's not that easy to write, you know, so I didn't use they, they went into the room.

Alan Smith (01:06:19.81)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rich (01:06:35.411)
I just have to say Ricky went into the room and then, know, but Ricky can be a boy or a girl. I wanted to boys or girls, but, but it's got all those 15 things in there. And in a way, in some ways you get everything that all those sort of lessons, a lot of the lessons in humble stumbles happened to Ricky, but in a very accessible way, because Ricky, Ricky starts a business, leaving school, doesn't know what to do, takes a gap year tries to start a business and then it's how he goes or how she goes. know, you see how easy it is to a pronoun.

Alan Smith (01:07:00.622)
Who knows, he or she? Yeah. yeah. Exactly. That sounds really interesting as well. I happen to have a 16 year old boy who's sort going through that thing and we're thinking about future university, career, anything else. He's very business minded. So that's a Christmas present lined up. Hope he doesn't listen to this, but a little surprise. So sounds great.

Rich (01:07:03.431)
It's so easy when you're riding, you know, like...

Rich (01:07:20.519)
Yeah, I think that's okay. I don't know, that'll be ten quid. That'd be, you know, I've had a few kids read it. Anyway, I'll stop plugging it. But I wouldn't be surprised if that book did better than Humble Stumbles, because it's just, I don't know if there's anything like it, but it really does have a lot of lessons in there. I just put everything in there, in a fun way. No, but I got on a roll. I got on a roll. And also I knew what I was going to say, you know, like, because I just finished Humble Stumbles. So, you know.

Alan Smith (01:07:37.324)
Yeah. But that didn't take you 10 years, right? You did that faster. Right.

Yeah. Right. And it just poured out of you. And as you say, it's autobiographical to a certain extent. It is a bit about you and your journey, but weaving in some other stories. No,

Rich (01:07:57.031)
not really. Not, not, I mean, not it's autobiographical in the sense that it's, it's not really, no, no, it's just has mistakes that I made. You know, Ricky's not in a care system, know, like he's, you know, any, you know, and, and and Ricky gets some help from his parents and I, I put in the four, I put in the forward that, you know, I hope whoever's reading it, not, no, not, but, it's not, it's, it's one business. has, you know, I've tried to put a lot of things happen in that business and I haven't had that anyway, but, but I tried, I did put in the forward that I hope whoever has a business.

Alan Smith (01:08:06.892)
Right. Got it.

Yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah. No, it's not specifically. Yeah.

Alan Smith (01:08:24.386)
Yeah, yeah.

Rich (01:08:26.739)
has that support from, if they don't have parents, that it might be a school teacher or a friend. Yeah.

Alan Smith (01:08:30.446)
Mmm.

Got it, got it. Okay, that is great. I'll put links so people can check them out, but yeah, definitely go wherever, go to good bookstores, go online, buy those books. We're just in time for the holiday season, as they say, and sharing and swapping gifts. And I think, yeah, particularly anyone in business, a lot of people who listen to watch this podcast, they are generally in business and those, they've got kids thinking about kind of what they're gonna do with their lives, because things are changing fast.

Rich (01:08:41.267)
Thank you.

Alan Smith (01:09:02.318)
I think that'd be a useful gift to hand out. Look, I've just got a couple of more things I wanna ask you before and I can let you get off and get on with the rest of your day. I just wanna get your take right now as a seasoned entrepreneur, as someone who's been at this for a long, long time, you've been through several cycles, I guess, and up markets and down markets and recessions and what have you. As we're speaking as a...

As an Aussie, an Australian who's lived in different parts of the world, you now made the UK your home. I mean, from where I'm looking, it's a challenging environment out there for business. We've this, got a new government's come in. There's a budget which I would say trying to be fairly politically neutral, but wasn't particularly good or positive for business. Quite a few challenges. What's your take in the current business landscape in the UK right now?

Rich (01:09:54.387)
It's not very rosy, unfortunately. I don't know if I, you I think we might have been talking about it. I don't know if we were talking about it when we met the other night, you know, but it's, and it's not, it's not necessarily blaming the government because it was like that before the election. And, and, know, a lot of stuff wasn't happening because we were going into an election. you know, don't, after the election, no one's got the confidence. I mean, it's very hard, know, like,

Alan Smith (01:09:58.968)
Please go ahead, say what you think.

Alan Smith (01:10:10.786)
Exactly. Yeah.

Rich (01:10:22.131)
All I hear is I don't hear anyone hiring. I just hear you know layoffs being planned You know and and the government is is might you know with its sort of you as a wealthy person And you know you don't feel that wanted and and it's all right You know I've been here too long to be a non-dom anyway, but but scaring away people like that It might sound great. You know and it might be maybe it's fair

Alan Smith (01:10:38.766)
Hmm.

Rich (01:10:47.485)
But on the other hand, I know people who are leaving, but also they're not counting the people who aren't going to come. I don't know anyone. If I was living in Monaco now, when I moved to the UK, I would not move here now. So do they count those people? You call it the opportunity cost. So they're counting the people who going to leave, but are they counting the people who aren't going to come? I can understand the unfairness of it, but some people, what they spend in VAT a year,

Alan Smith (01:11:00.462)
Mm.

Yeah.

Rich (01:11:16.519)
will pay for two school teachers, you know, I mean, so it's a reality. And meanwhile, places like Portugal, Italy, Spain, know, Malta, you know, they're attracting, they're trying to bend over backwards to attract. So I hope I haven't made up my mind about the current government yet. I hope it's not class warfare, you know, where it's just level the playing field at any cost. But I have heard people think that. But and also just all that people don't, there's never going to be a headline, but you know about it, like the little things for

Alan Smith (01:11:16.75)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (01:11:25.39)
Mm.

Alan Smith (01:11:45.166)
Hmm.

Rich (01:11:46.425)
The little things for businesses like SEIS, your tax breaks, how long it takes you to get an R &D tax credit, know, incentives for managers where they don't pay as much tax if you give them shares and like all that, none of it's getting easier. You know, and that's the sort of stuff you feel at the ground level. And I start businesses from scratch and you know, you get to 20 people, I don't find.

And you you've got to realize what we're up again. I'm here now. You probably do realize but you you're in the US and you have an idea you got a lunch you can walk out with 10 million I'm not being completely flippant but over lunch you can raise 10 million you try and raise 10 million here and that's been falling there was something in the times I think where a six-year low on funding for mediums small medium-sized businesses and that's you know, we've got fantastic things here the university is particularly very strong the creative people are very creative the education system is good and

Alan Smith (01:12:20.494)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (01:12:32.014)
Hmm.

Rich (01:12:38.899)
It's a great society. love London. But if you've got to support, and I don't feel that that's been happening for a long time. I mean, what do you think? Am I being...

Alan Smith (01:12:46.872)
Hmm. Yeah. No, I agree. It's just, know, you and I, I sort of live and breathe amongst the business community in London and around the UK. And what you just said in summary is reflected on pretty much every conversation you have. There's not a lot of optimism around, unfortunately. You know, one thing about entrepreneurs is, you know, they're resilient. You know, you have to be, you know, even in kind of good times, are knockbacks, there are challenges, there are...

events that you don't enjoy going through, but it just seems that wherever you look right now, and by the way, I don't know any business owner that wants to avoid paying tax at all. They're more than happy to contribute, but there seems to be an environment and a sense of almost negativity, almost animosity towards wealth creators and businesses. And I think it's a difficult time, but unless you are one of these people who's sort of choosing to upstix and move to...

a different country, you kind of got to get on with it. And there's this history of plenty of successful businesses being created during very, very challenging times, during recessions, during tough times. And I guess maybe there's less competition around, there's less people who are going to start a business right now. So maybe there's a chance to do better. So all those business owners, all those entrepreneurs are going have to double down, show that resilience once again and empower their way through.

Rich (01:13:52.326)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Smith (01:14:09.59)
So, know, wise words and I agree entirely with what you say. In terms of, just in the last question or two, in terms of these times as well as any other time, I think having useful resources, places you can go to pick up ideas, suggestions, I know you're a successful author yourself, but have there historically been any other resources that you've used or books that you've read that you've found particularly helpful?

Rich (01:14:09.874)
Mmm.

Alan Smith (01:14:38.828)
Anything else that you'd recommend others might take a look at?

Rich (01:14:42.547)
Well, no. Well, that's one of the reasons, you know, that's one of reasons when I wrote my book, you know, the finance book, because I'd pick up something, you know, say by George Soros, and I'd have to read a whole book, you know, and I might get one or two things in there, and I'm not being picking on, you know, but I found even those things I'd find debatable. So when I wrote the books, you know, that's why I deliberately put strategies, put them there, say this is a strategy, you know, so I think

Alan Smith (01:14:45.004)
Yeah, right, that's good.

Rich (01:15:12.247)
I you just, you know, if you just, I get most of my stuff from reading, you know, the news about companies, about meeting other people such as yourself, swapping stories, like, you know, you're probably not going to find it in a textbook or you might find it in mine because it's very story oriented. But, know, you know, so it's a lot about meeting, as you say, with homegrown or meeting with communities, you know, and, and, and Ricky in Ricky means business goes into goes to a business club and learns a lot from a bit like

Alan Smith (01:15:19.822)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Alan Smith (01:15:28.643)
Yeah.

Rich (01:15:40.307)
karate kid, know, what's the old, you know. Anyway, I think, I don't know if there's just a book, you know, if there's resources, you've just got to generally be out there. You know, having said that, I know people who start businesses in vacuum, but it's better to get soundboards.

Alan Smith (01:15:40.524)
Right, sure.

Alan Smith (01:15:48.94)
Yeah, yeah, I... Yeah.

Alan Smith (01:15:56.62)
Yeah, I agree with you. There is such a lot of value in community. being around, as you say, you and I were having a chat last week and just the conversations that spark off from being around other, I guess, like-minded people. They're very, very valuable. So everyone get out there, meet people, have a cup of tea, have a coffee, shake hands, know, see the whites to their eyes.

Rich (01:16:16.059)
Hmm. Well, when we met, yeah, when we met the other night, you know, homegrown event, you know, we talked a lot with other people as well, you know, and I love hearing stories, you know, I love hearing business stories. Don't you love hearing, you know, people start a business and it's like, what are you doing? And you get that from there and why are you doing that? we're going to do that. And you're like, and you're just so creative and stuff that I wouldn't have thought of, you know, it's just like, love, you know, I love it.

Alan Smith (01:16:27.404)
That was great, great community and just, yeah, yeah.

Alan Smith (01:16:41.132)
Rich, this is why, this is the genesis of this podcast, is I would literally sit in rooms or bars or whatever with founders and I always started by saying, I would just ask the question, how'd you get started?

And that would be just beginning story. Well, I was working for this company and myself and Jack, my buddy, we had this idea and off it went. And people just tell you these fascinating kind of, it's like a hero's journey story, if you're familiar with that. There's always, you start off, you embark on this crazy adventure and there's this sort of slings and arrows and challenges that come your way. And if you're successful, lucky enough and worked hard enough to get to the other side, you know, it's just a, it's a fascinating, like you.

I love it and I've had, I don't know, 60 something conversations on this podcast and many others outside of it. And I just, yeah, like you thoroughly enjoy it. It's really, really interesting. And I'm really grateful to you, Richard, for sharing your time with me today. I've got one last question. Now I did ask this of you, if you can remember when we were, yeah, it's the hardest. And it means different things to different people, but you listen, you've been there, seen it, done it, bought the t-shirt, all that stuff.

Rich (01:17:38.963)
Is it the hottest?

Alan Smith (01:17:50.626)
and you've experienced clearly some significant financial success and enjoyed wealth, but if you distill it all down, and I've got a sense based on what you've just said to me over the last hour or so where we might go with this, but what is your personal definition of true wealth? What does true wealth mean to you,

Rich (01:18:08.883)
You know, there's a story of Joseph Heller, know, Catch 22, he wrote this fantastic book, whatever. And he was talking to, you know, a very wealthy guy back whenever the story. And the wealthy guy was saying to Joseph Heller, you know, like, you know, I've got all this money, I've blah, blah. And Joseph Heller, great author, said to him, yeah, but I've got one thing you'll never have. And he said, well, what's that? And he said, Enough. You know, I think, I don't know, you know, I think, I think

the research says you need a certain amount of money to be comfortable, but you know, your health is, know, if your health goes, know, suddenly that's the most important thing. I used to have a list of five things, I can't remember what they are at the top of my head, but you know, obviously some finance, but you know, finance, family, health, know, having interests, know, socializing, you know, friends, I mean, all those things, equally balanced. If you push up any of those,

And one book I did like was, shit, I can't remember the name, but Happiness by Design. Happiness by Design. And was sort of almost a scientific book, although it's sort of self-help book, but it's written about survey, it's scientifically written with research. Anyway, way boiled it down was basically, in life there's purpose and pleasure. And it's a

balance between those things. And if you have too much purpose, you become a workaholic and you never stop to smell the roses, you know, and pleasure if you don't become a hedonist, but you've got to have some pleasure in life. Sometimes you got to sit back and enjoy it. So it's about it's about having pleasure and purpose. And you know, those things, you know, like health, you know, then friends and family, you know, that's sort of the pleasure side of it. And so you need to balance. I've given you a sort of a, to me, it's holistic. It's a lot of things money is not, you know, I know, it's easy for me to say, but I've been poorer than probably most people

Alan Smith (01:19:55.651)
Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Rich (01:19:58.643)
who are listening to us. So I've been very poor and you know, one of the benefits I have, as I said, if it all goes horribly wrong and I need to go and live in a shack in the outback somewhere, I know I could do it. You know, I wouldn't worry me as long as I had Wi-Fi and I could play a bit of chess or something, I'd be all right. You know, so I don't really, you know, but your health goes or your friends go, you know, I think it's about the balance. I mean, what do you think? mean, it's a, I've, I've,

Alan Smith (01:20:17.591)
Right.

Alan Smith (01:20:21.578)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree with you. Yeah. There's a certain level of comfort that finance or wealth will bring you, but I don't, there's again, lot of studies about this. don't mean, if someone's got, I didn't know whatever the number of, if it's a million pounds, if it's 10 million, if it's a hundred million, the happiness level does not increase in like, once you're above that kind of, that sense of enough that you've described eloquently there a moment ago.

Rich (01:20:42.067)
Hmm.

Alan Smith (01:20:48.046)
and all the other things are, yeah, the vital. It means different things to different people, but I think for most of us, it is that idea of freedom, identity, following your journey, your path, and having the right people around you, both friends and family. But no, that's wonderful. Richard, I really appreciate your time. I know you're a busy guy. There's lots of things going on. There's a lot of other things we could have talked about. Might get you back again in the new year or next year.

plenty of other things we can unpack and go into in a bit more detail. Best of luck with your not one, not two, but three books, including the relaunch of the previous one. Sounds great. I'm sure we'll be seeing and hearing a lot from you as you get invited into all the talk shows to promote the books going forward. I'll certainly be buying them, others will as well. But for now, Richard Farleigh, thank you very much.

Rich (01:21:23.909)
Yeah.

Rich (01:21:42.547)
Thank you very much, Alan. enjoyed it. Thank you.